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Most users ever online was 111 on Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:43 pm

You Met your Defense Cap!! TIME TO TANK!! I Think NOT..

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You Met your Defense Cap!! TIME TO TANK!! I Think NOT..

Post  Ulalume on Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:06 pm

In one of my previous threads I bring up the importance of reaching the defense cap of 540 for all raiding tanks. Unfortunately this stat alone is insufficient for tanking Naxx or in that case anything. Health, Armor, and avoidance stats are incredibly vital to the survivability of a tank as well as defense. So this begs the question: what are the magic numbers for health, armor and avoidance? Luckily, these answers are not as set in stone as the 540 defense cap; these stats are fudge-able. In my procrastination of writing my final thesis in Ancient Greek philosophy, I came upon this nifty thread where DK's are discussing the magic numbers they used to tank heroics and Naxx!! If you are wanting to tank, take a look at the magic numbers these DK's posted and if you are an 'A' student armory their chars to get an idea of what gear was needed to achieve those magic numbers.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html;jsessionid=6894481A712D6A073FF15A451ACFB40A.app23_03?topicId=13129159960&sid=1

Disclaimer: These stats are very DK bias and thus if you are not a DK treat the stats as a rough estimate of what stats you need as a tank. DKs are drastically different from Druids, Warriors, and Paladins in that they wear plate and can parry (unlike a druid) but can't use shields (unlike warriors and paladins) so they rely on high parry and dodge stats to compensate for their lack of a shield. *also they may rely on high armor and health (like a druid does) to compensate for the shield loss but don't quote me on this*

;O
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Re: You Met your Defense Cap!! TIME TO TANK!! I Think NOT..

Post  Droxia on Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:10 pm

Idhrenniel wrote:In one of my previous threads I bring up the importance of reaching the defense cap of 540 for all raiding tanks. ...
You brought it up?

A more generalized statement of "The importance of reaching the defense cap was brought up..." would be more appropriate

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Re: You Met your Defense Cap!! TIME TO TANK!! I Think NOT..

Post  Ulalume on Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:58 pm

If you have a problem with how I've phrased things please let me know personally and not bring it up in the thread. It is rather unhelpful when I post something it is criticized by its form and not its content. It also tends to start thread de railments that end in fights that nobody really ever intended or wanted. I am trying really hard to just present the information so if something seems bias or offensive to you I'd like to fix it. So please, if you have an issue with how I wrote something PM me and ill edit it. If you have a problem with the content bring it up in the thread because that is what the thread is for, it is a discussion about raids not about grammar form. I know this reply is in itself hypocritical of the previous statement but I feel that some clarification was needed and I hope that this helps purge this thread of further unhelpful derailments from the topic at hand.

;O
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Re: You Met your Defense Cap!! TIME TO TANK!! I Think NOT..

Post  Droxia on Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:45 pm

How about this.

1.) Post more accurately and I may stop pointing out the flaws in your posts.

2.) Give creidt where credit is due. The last time you posted info, you didn't cite the link. This time you screwed up who borught up what. This is probably most important to me due to personal reasons. I'll just say I worked with a friend who all he wanted was credit for what he did. He helped the company and the people at his tier of the workplace improve their workflow by 33% In the end the work he did was never credited so he quit and left an email that had an encrypted file. When you decrypted the file, it had 25 points of where the security was flawed for the work flow and everything they did to hide stuff form the workers, in truth was very exposed for anyone to see. Even some of the bosses files.

3.) Realize that you can call shananigans on me also so future posters can see the errors in everyone's ways. I don't mind being corrected. I don't mind being called out. I do it to everyone here, I even do it in game. When I'm wrong I admit it, suck it up and learn from the mistake. At the same time, people can see said mistakes and learn from them. You did that in your post and you're right. I still won't PM you or anyone to point something out that's wrong or that I think is wrong, and you have a point. However see number 2 above.


So since you seem to call me out, I'll call you out on the problem of your thread title. The problem? being death knight biased. You make no mention of the thread being death knight biased until the very end, because of such a generalized topic as the title, you mislead people into thinking this can be also a strong basis for druids, warriors and pallys who all work off of different mechanics. Warriors need a shield, Pally's need Spell Power and Druids need high health and dodge to help with their needs at the defense cap.

If you're going to come off as being a souce of info, than be prepared with said info.

And now, to rerail the thread. and yes I'll edit this post as I find more.

For a general discussion about 540 and defense:
http://www.worldofraids.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19987
http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?topic=20427.msg336495
http://www.wowwiki.com/Defense
http://www.wowwiki.com/Combat_rating_system

For Warriors:
http://elitistjerks.com/f81/t36850-protection_gear_quick_reference/
http://elitistjerks.com/f81/t18771-protection_guide/

For Paladins:
http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t37172-protection_paladin_field_manual_wow-3_0_wotlk/
http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t17089-protection_you/

For Druids:
http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t37126-tanking_talent_build/
http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t36963-feral_pre-raid_tank_gear/
http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t36681-feral-bear_megathread/

For Death Knights:
http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t36998-dk_tanking_discussion/
http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t36314-dktankcraft_spread_sheet/

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Re: You Met your Defense Cap!! TIME TO TANK!! I Think NOT..

Post  SmokeGSU on Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:02 am

Jeez take a chill pill guys. Id, as usual, I want to take you out on a lovely steak dinner for no other reason than because I want to. Next, Drox, it's cool to correct somebody in a POLITE manner. Honestly, I personally don't give a flying fart about cites and whatnot cause I don't care who writes the info up as long as it's beneficial. But anyways, I agree with Id that it's more appropriate to send somebody PM on the forums or whisper in game about something that's apparently a big deal to yourself. I understand where you're coming from and all, but no reason to be kinda nasty in a public thread for all to see.
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Re: You Met your Defense Cap!! TIME TO TANK!! I Think NOT..

Post  Ulalume on Fri Dec 05, 2008 12:41 pm

A sincere thanks Smokey but I'd rather not continue an argument I was trying to snuff out. Please let us focus on the topic at hand, which is finding gear for tanks, and not start unnecessary squabbles. Droxia was right in that the way I phrased my sentance it could be taken that I was stating I wrote the defense article which I didn't. Unfortunately, I didn't notice my mistake. As for refusing to PM me about my errors that is his choice and I although I disagree with it I respect his decision. Droxia has put some very valuable links into this thread that I hope all aspiring tanks take a look at it. I am greatful for the addition to the thread and I hope more people contribute to the database. By the way there are some very nice quest reward shoulders that would suit all tanks excluding druids from a quest in the Halls of Stone. I highly suggest hiking up there and poking your plate wearing heads into the instance. Just watch out for Maiden's black holes Wink

;O
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Re: You Met your Defense Cap!! TIME TO TANK!! I Think NOT..

Post  Droxia on Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:24 pm

I'm dropping the font size on this since it does not directly relate to the thread.

Emphasis mine to make a few points.
SmokeGSU wrote:Jeez take a chill pill guys. Id, as usual, I want to take you out on a lovely steak dinner for no other reason than because I want to. Next, Drox, it's cool to correct somebody in a POLITE manner. Honestly, I personally don't give a flying fart about cites and whatnot cause I don't care who writes the info up as long as it's beneficial. But anyways, I agree with Id that it's more appropriate to send somebody PM on the forums or whisper in game about something that's apparently a big deal to yourself. I understand where you're coming from and all, but no reason to be kinda nasty in a public thread for all to see.
Your point of view is biased as well as being contradictory. Point out where I'm being nasty and impolite and do so without having a biase and maybe you have an arguement. I've stated nothing but facts in this thread.

Technically speaking, shouldn't you have sent this in a PM?

I for one am not the only one that cares about what they do and where credit is due.
http://www.wowinsider.com/2008/12/02/chinese-mmo-rips-of-world-of-warcraft-others/

back on track:
This is from the Casually Hardcore Podcast. This was their episode on tanking. While the show was more about TBC at the time (it's from July 6th, 2008), certain things still apply (so yes, this info probably applies to Paladins, Druids, and Warriors. Healers should take a listen also.) An example of something I picked up from the podcast is about Paladins and Spiritual Attunement. The fact that Pallys gain mana back on actual health healed, instead of the overheal.

http://www.wcradio.com/archive/casuallyhardcore/wow-ch-07-06-08.mp3

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Re: You Met your Defense Cap!! TIME TO TANK!! I Think NOT..

Post  Ulalume on Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:59 pm

So there is this tanking trinket that is an absolute must have off of the final boss of Halls of Lightning Reg. It is THE best pre- heroic/ raid trinket tanking trinket in the game. Luckly, HoL is Frost's favorite instance which means there is a high possibility of groups forming for this instance.

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=36993
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Re: You Met your Defense Cap!! TIME TO TANK!! I Think NOT..

Post  Svander on Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:50 pm

Yesterday I pretty much tanked an instance for the first time in a like level group (max 75) that wasn't all death knights. We were in Drak'tharon and the Waistguard of the Risen Knight dropped for me.

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37801

This is a level 80 plate tanking belt, that it dropped off lvl 74 trash in DT is probably a bug. I think it's meant for the heroic loot tables. I recommend running this instance to get the belt before the next patch fixes it, heh.

Anyway, I'm pretty happy!

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Re: You Met your Defense Cap!! TIME TO TANK!! I Think NOT..

Post  Lirixia on Sun Dec 28, 2008 2:10 am

Well, after 3 weeks I got some more purples yesterday *yay for not so naked-80ness* including the ring I've been wanting http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37192 cheers

You know....we probably should all go together to HoL (reg and H) pff Id needs a trinket....Frost and I still need new pants geek
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Re: You Met your Defense Cap!! TIME TO TANK!! I Think NOT..

Post  Keljaedon on Sun Dec 28, 2008 5:08 am

IF you need another dps, I'd be more then willing to go as my DK if I'm around.
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Re: You Met your Defense Cap!! TIME TO TANK!! I Think NOT..

Post  Ulalume on Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:30 am

Lirixia wrote:Well, after 3 weeks I got some more purples yesterday *yay for not so naked-80ness* including the ring I've been wanting http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37192 cheers

You know....we probably should all go together to HoL (reg and H) pff Id needs a trinket....Frost and I still need new pants geek

Psst I got that trink a month ago Wink
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Re: You Met your Defense Cap!! TIME TO TANK!! I Think NOT..

Post  Svander on Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:07 pm

I got Nyctalope to 540 defense this weekend. Helps to be a JC and be able to tweak your own gems without spending a fortune...

I also learned I suck at blood dps and I'm going back to unholy spec.

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Re: You Met your Defense Cap!! TIME TO TANK!! I Think NOT..

Post  Ulalume on Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:58 pm

Unholy spec is great. Just remeber unholy dps and unholy tanking require two different ways of specking.

For tanking you are going to want lichborn, bone shield and at least the two tanking talents on the first tiers of blood and frost. Also, since it's aoe tanking you will probably like unholy blight as an extra aoe that makes your mobs stick to you even more. I like to have anti magic zone and on a pale horse as a utility aspect although they aren't really required.

For unholy dps... I'm still contemplating this. I know blood has some talents for dps but so does frost so I have no idea. I think you would want the blade talents for dps (blood caked blade, necrosis) and the plague talents but things like bone shield, and anticipation are questionable.
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Re: You Met your Defense Cap!! TIME TO TANK!! I Think NOT..

Post  Svander on Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:43 pm

I have the parry talent from blood, some stuff to generate runic power, crit, and a few points in rune tap. There are some things I have taken in unholy like pale horse and corpse explosion that I just plain enjoy having, even though they dont really impact dps/tanking. I think corpse explosion is about to get a damage buff anyway.

I'm at 20/0/51 as of late last night. No points in Frost. I have played as blood and as unholy, but never specced down into sissy frost.

Speccing this far into blood I had to give up antimagic zone, which is nice but it's more useful for me to be able to get a free 3000 health every 40 sec.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Dark+Iron&n=Nyctalope

Back when I first started leveling I could rarely keep up enough runic power to use unholy blight, but now with the blood points and dirge I seem to rack it up quick enough that I can use it and a death coil and maybe a gargoyle on most fights.

Just testing it out on some single icecrown lvl 80 mobs, where I was getting 700-900 dps as blood w/o popping the dancing rune weapon, I am now getting 900-1100 w/o popping gargoyle (1400-1600 if I score some crits). Was really depressing to be running around some of the dungeons yesterday with dps often well below 1000 while everyone else is 1500+.

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Re: You Met your Defense Cap!! TIME TO TANK!! I Think NOT..

Post  Svander on Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:30 am

Wow, so I have been playing a Frost tank the last couple weeks and have liked it. Nice tanking cooldowns and excellent DPS and threat with howling blast on multiple mobs.

They are destroying everything I like about Frost on the PTR at the moment. All our cooldowns are being doubled (2 min for stuff like Icebound Fort and Unbreakable Armor,), Lichborn e is having its tanking benefit completely stripped away, and Howling blast is both having its damage reduced and its cooldown doubled to 10 seconds. Oh and frost presence magic resistance is nerfed too.


What crap.


Looks like I'm going back to Unholy tanking soon.

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Re: You Met your Defense Cap!! TIME TO TANK!! I Think NOT..

Post  Lirixia on Thu Mar 12, 2009 4:16 am

Oh noes nerfing frost Sad

I recently switched from blood tank to frost, and I like it-definitely more dps as a tank and better aoe control of the mobs. (Though I personally liked my survivabilty better as blood) Twisted Evil

Question though-my dps was prety low as a blood tank, even though I had no problems keeping agro, but any suggestion on contributing more dps while tanking? Rolling Eyes
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Re: You Met your Defense Cap!! TIME TO TANK!! I Think NOT..

Post  Scimmia on Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:02 am

If you are a tank and you hold aggro...that's all that matters cheers



Last edited by Scimmia on Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:11 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Testing sig.)
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Re: You Met your Defense Cap!! TIME TO TANK!! I Think NOT..

Post  Droxia on Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:08 pm

Lirixia wrote:Oh noes nerfing frost Sad

I recently switched from blood tank to frost, and I like it-definitely more dps as a tank and better aoe control of the mobs. (Though I personally liked my survivabilty better as blood) Twisted Evil

Question though-my dps was prety low as a blood tank, even though I had no problems keeping agro, but any suggestion on contributing more dps while tanking? Rolling Eyes
Get better weapons?

Ok. As a tank, while you can contribute to DPS, your main concern should be threat, not dps. Scimmia is right - holding the aggro should be your primary concern. Omen should be your best friend while tanking. If you have a rogue in your group, they should be your 2nd best friend with Trick of the Trade with you as the target, followed by a hunter with Misdirect.

The only things that can help after that are being hit capped for melee. From what I've read getting spell capped for DK's is HARD (not impossible) as you may be wasting stats for other things that can contribute to your dps/threat (like gemming for strength)

While I'm sure the last patch has changed a few things, I think 3.1 will change things even more. From what I've seen (and what was the original train of thought) Unholy is better for AOE tanking while Frost is the Tank Tree and better for single target/boss tanking.

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Re: You Met your Defense Cap!! TIME TO TANK!! I Think NOT..

Post  Svander on Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:32 pm

I dont usually have too much problem with threat. If someone steals it, that's what death grip and dark command are for.

However, the high damage that Howling Blast does on multiple targets has been a staple of my ability to get threat quick and keep threat while operating with a Frost spec. Reducing the dmg it does and how often I can cast it will really hurt. That only leaves Death and Decay to hold multiple mobs, which is on a pretty long cool down.

Doubling all our tanking cooldowns means we are going to take a lot more spiky damage. So between the prospect of not being able to get as much aggro due to less dps and less mitigation of damage, Frost tanking is going to be a lot harder.

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Re: You Met your Defense Cap!! TIME TO TANK!! I Think NOT..

Post  Ulalume on Sat Mar 14, 2009 8:20 am

When tanking:
Threat Generation = Importance to Survival!! DPS is icing on the cake; don't worry about it so much.
Stack:
Defense- Stam- armor
Str (which lends its self to parry)- hit
Agility- dodge (GEM FOR DODGE!! Str will build up your parry %)
In that order PERIOD

As for the patch:
Lichborne will be practically useless as a tanking talent because it will not increase the chance for enemies to miss you SO, I'm going to spec for blood tap in the blood tree, pick up my frost tanking talents and then go deep unholy (cause I <3 AOE tanking). They are revamping the unholy tree so that unholy blight and gargoyle switch possions on the talent tree which means I'll have more talent points to spend in my tanking spec because I don't spec for gargoyle when tanking.
As for the cooldowns: Spec for some nice mitigation and avodience talents and get some NICE trinkets. The trinkets will almost become more valuable because their CD's will be alot faster. Stack defense for that icebound fortitude increase.
What really irks me is that pestulence will do NO damage. SAY WHAT?!!! I have to use boo coo runes to lay my diseases, spread them, and then hit blood boil to do dmg. *Ula goes into deep dispare* Well, tanking will actually be a challenge now *giggles psychotically*
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